World Politics (aka the Greek Peace Summit)

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Huojin
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Re: World Politics (aka the Greek Peace Summit)

Post by Huojin » 19:15:03 Wednesday, 11 January, 2017

Red John wrote:
OYID wrote:Updates and expanded the shit list. Thinking of making a list of leftist orgs and folks I actually like if there's enough interest. :P
Woah there, Jeremy 'One man vanguard' Corbyn most assuredly was not a remain campaigner. He completely failed to do anything meaningful for the campaign, and seemed to want out himself.
He was a half-assed Remain campaigner, in that he himself clearly wanted Brexit but was pressured by the rest of the party to align with Remain. Still, by half-assing it he both helped assure a Brexit victory and failed to present a left-wing narrative for Brexit, allowing the entire movement to become co-opted by the right wing, immigrant bashing, expert-denying bunch.

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Re: World Politics (aka the Greek Peace Summit)

Post by OYID » 19:48:25 Wednesday, 11 January, 2017

Huojin wrote:
Red John wrote:
OYID wrote:Updates and expanded the shit list. Thinking of making a list of leftist orgs and folks I actually like if there's enough interest. :P
Woah there, Jeremy 'One man vanguard' Corbyn most assuredly was not a remain campaigner. He completely failed to do anything meaningful for the campaign, and seemed to want out himself.
He was a half-assed Remain campaigner, in that he himself clearly wanted Brexit but was pressured by the rest of the party to align with Remain. Still, by half-assing it he both helped assure a Brexit victory and failed to present a left-wing narrative for Brexit, allowing the entire movement to become co-opted by the right wing, immigrant bashing, expert-denying bunch.
Quite. This from the man who built his brand on rocking the boat. Guess he's not such a troublemaker when it actually matters.

I forgot to mention it but he's part of what I call "the rotten old socdem mummies revived by global capitalism to co-opt the emergent revolutionary movement", a category in which I include him, Bernie Sanders and the current phase in the carreer of Mexico's López Obrador. The name is pretty self-explanatory.

Don't trust old white dudes anymore, is what I'm getting at.
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Re: World Politics (aka the Greek Peace Summit)

Post by Huojin » 21:57:51 Wednesday, 11 January, 2017

OYID wrote:Don't trust old white dudes anymore, is what I'm getting at.
Was there a time when we were supposed to trust them? Because I think we've been pretty hard done by if that's the case.

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Re: World Politics (aka the Greek Peace Summit)

Post by Coin » 12:49:30 Thursday, 12 January, 2017

Huzzah for leftie racism ;)

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Re: World Politics (aka the Greek Peace Summit)

Post by Serenissima » 14:24:19 Thursday, 12 January, 2017

I'm no fan of Corbyn, but the Brexit situation is far more complicated than that. I don't think that the man is up to any good, but for different reasons - while the "anti immigration" thing he was supposedly going to announce was anything but, he essentially fails entirely at holding the government and the Blairites to account (and as most of Labour's MPs are also Blairite and doing their best to sabotage their own party constantly, it's no surprise). I do feel a bit sorry for him, as the hugely right-wing media prefers to devote column inches and airtime to calling him scruffily dressed, or saying he didn't respect the war dead, or whether he found a seat on a train or not, rather than even mentioning what the Tories are doing ever.

Essentially, he focuses on the wrong things and is far too unfocused, thus turning off the majority of voters one way or another by chasing tangents. He would really need to hammer the Tories on what they are doing to the health service, the abuses in the welfare system, the continual sale of the country to foreign interests via privatisation, the Orwellian mass surveillance regime, and so on, but instead he's dithering about over issues that most voters either don't care about or know about enough to have an independent opinion on (solidarity for Palestine, which the media instantly calls anti-Semetic and has witch hunts launched) or actively disagree with because it's idealistic cloud cuckoo lander type stuff (maybe if we ask nicely, stop resisting, and negotiate with them, IS will lay down their arms).

Reminds me of crappy old Natalie Bennett of the Green Party, who made herself and the party a bit of a laughing stock in the debate by, on the topic of human rights, responding (paraphrased) "Human rights? What about animal rights?!" In short, the left - the actual left - would really need to begin by competing on issues that immediately apply to most people and pointing out just how bad things are with who pays taxes and who doesn't, the ideological nonsense of austerity, and so on. EDIT: What I'm saying, to clarify, is that they've allowed the far right to falsely claim the mantle of 'actually cares about people in this country', but not only that, with the far right's narrow definition of 'people in this country' excluding anyone who isn't a racist white person.

But right now, they're just seen as a bunch of people who won't stop appearing to be "self-hating", because of the focus on the welfare of people abroad, animals, disarmament for the UK because we're evil (but not for that trustworthy Mr Putin of course). I'm not against international aid, think that we should be taking lots of refugees, and am heavily in favour of animal rights, but I recognise that campaigning on these issues rather than the voters' welfare is not a way to be seen as anything other than 'loony left'. And Corbyn fails at that. To me, it's something we ought to focus on after we win, rather than trying to make things that people simply don't care about election issues.
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Re: World Politics (aka the Greek Peace Summit)

Post by OYID » 00:48:52 Friday, 13 January, 2017

Palestine is important, and should be defended no matter what slander the Zionists throw at you.

Other than that holy shit!!! :o :o :o Thanks for the rundown, Seren. Laid out like that it's clear that social-democracy is not only a sham, but a sad and pathetic one at that. You're completely right: if the Left isn't fighting for the immediate human needs of working folk, then what the fuck is it good for.

Also, he sounds like he's a shit populist*: haters should fuel him, not drive him towards the loony issues. Oh! And this Bennett woman sounds a lot like Jill Stein. I think Huojin mentioned her once.

*In 2017 political lingo it probably means something akin to internet troll.
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Re: World Politics (aka the Greek Peace Summit)

Post by Huojin » 01:01:59 Friday, 13 January, 2017

OYID wrote:Also, he sounds like he's a shit populist*: haters should fuel him, not drive him towards the loony issues. Oh! And this Bennett woman sounds a lot like Jill Stein. I think Huojin mentioned her once.
She's somehow even more idiotic.

Have a listen to this interview (3mins45secs) if you can:


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Re: World Politics (aka the Greek Peace Summit)

Post by Serenissima » 13:50:00 Friday, 13 January, 2017

OYID wrote:Palestine is important, and should be defended no matter what slander the Zionists throw at you.
All I'm saying is that it isn't an election issue for the vast majority of British people, and that Corbyn focusing his attention on the bad things the Israeli state is doing is diluting attention from the bad things the British state is doing (which campaigning on might actually attract some support). Sad as it is, the voters largely don't care about it or even have an opinion, and going on about it as a priority, instead of powerfully opposing the Tories' far-right economics, is just making Labour look out of touch. It's a failure to address important issues (like capitalism) due to a fear of losing the centre ground, while trying to look left wing for the left-wing base by chasing other causes. It all ends up not really standing for anything. I don't believe the Blairite nonsense about how going too far left will alienate voters. If Labour and the left were to offer a real alternative with UBI and actually taxing fairly rather than putting the burden exclusively on the working people, I think they would do better.
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Re: World Politics (aka the Greek Peace Summit)

Post by Tellos » 05:44:21 Sunday, 15 January, 2017

I disagree Seren, issue is the image of the left is same as issue of image on the right. go too far and you reach crazy land. trouble is the "real alternative" is always at least here jsut somebody insanely on one sides edge. Trump was the "real alternative."
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Re: World Politics (aka the Greek Peace Summit)

Post by Huojin » 19:57:01 Tuesday, 09 May, 2017

Just for record-keeping so I don't forget, MoO and I have a bet as to whether there'll be major protests (defined as 500,000+ out on the streets in one day) against Macron in the first six months since his election.

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Re: World Politics (aka the Greek Peace Summit)

Post by Gesar » 20:03:09 Tuesday, 09 May, 2017

Huojin wrote:Just for record-keeping so I don't forget, MoO and I have a bet as to whether there'll be major protests (defined as 500,000+ out on the streets in one day) against Macron in the first six months since his election.
Put me down for four months and the 'yes' side.
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Re: World Politics (aka the Greek Peace Summit)

Post by Huojin » 20:10:15 Tuesday, 09 May, 2017

Gesar wrote:
Huojin wrote:Just for record-keeping so I don't forget, MoO and I have a bet as to whether there'll be major protests (defined as 500,000+ out on the streets in one day) against Macron in the first six months since his election.
Put me down for four months and the 'yes' side.
Winner gets to decide the loser's avatar, user title and signature for a week, just so you know~

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Re: World Politics (aka the Greek Peace Summit)

Post by Zar » 21:41:52 Tuesday, 09 May, 2017

Sign me up for no.
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