Huojin's Confusing Yet Cool Shit

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Huojin's Confusing Yet Cool Shit

Postby Huojin » 20:18:09 Saturday, 21 January, 2017

Okay, so anyone who's drifted in and out of IRC and/or spoke to me in the past two days may have guessed, but I've been fucking around with Balance of Power in an attempt to add new features, make things better, etc. The result so far looks a little confusing, and that's just with one Player Nation's sample stats, but there's hella cool shit being included.

I'd appreciate feedback from anyone and everyone - things you like, things you don't like, exploits you've spotted, questions you have, methods to change or simplify or improve things.

Shoutouts to MoO who yammered with me about ideas, Smyg for giving me one of his ideas, and Merdy for some inclination of where to begin with international finance, even if my system is totally different.

Without any further ado, here we go:

RED elements are new. There's a lot of it.

1st Jan 2008

[NOT ACCOUNTED FOR:
+10 prestige for each nation in your sphere
-10 prestige for each associated rebel group]

-United States of America-
President: George W. Bush
National Influence: 50% USA, 10% UK, 10% France, 10% PRC, 10% Saudi Arabia, 10% Japan
Prestige: 500 [+145; +10 Base, +70 Nuclear, +50 Intelligence, +40 Space, +15 Units, +30 Peaceful Deploy, +10 Trade Bloc, -80 Combat Deploy]
Domestic Popularity: Moderate
Foreign Popularity: Moderate
Military Units: 8/15 [-70, 1 in Germany, S.Korea, Japan, 3 in Iraq, 1 in Afghanistan, -150 maintenance]
Nuclear Level: 7/7 [-70 maintenance]
Intelligence Level: 5/5 [-50 maintenance]
Space Level: 4/6 [-50 maintenance]
Economy: +525 [100 to Canada, 60 to Mexico, 40 to China, 40 to Japan, 40 to UK, 30 to Germany, 30 to France, 30 to Netherlands, 30 to Taiwan, 30 to Saudi Arabia, 20 to Brazil, 20 to Belgium, 15 to Singapore, 15 to Hong Kong, 15 to Australia, 10 to Iraq]
Contributions: -135 [60/60 World Bank, 60/60 IMF, 15/15 ADB]
National Debt: -80 [1600/2100 owed]
International Debt: -20 [500 China (L2017, -5 interest); 200 Japan (L2020, -0 interest); 150 Saudi Arabia (E2012, -5 interest); 150 Brazil (E2014, -5 interest); 150 UK (L2020, -5 interest)]
Institutional Debt: 0

Credit Income: +300 [+40 NAFTA, +60 Canada, +45 China, +40 Mexico, +35 Latin America, +35 Gulf States, +30 SE Asia, +20 Japan, +20 Australasia, +15 Germany, +10 UK, +10 S.Korea, +10 Africa, +5 Taiwan, +5 France, +5 Netherlands, +5 Brazil, +5 Italy, +5 Nigeria]
Conflicts: War on Terror, War in Afghanistan, Iraq War


Prestige:
Prestige operates as a measure of a nation's international esteem. It is increase by measures of your nation's stats (such as nuclear or military capabilities) which emphasise your national power - but also by actions such as diplomatic participation. Prestige can also be lost when nations behave in a fashion looked down upon by the international community.

Prestige can be utilised as an expression of Soft Power - being directed into a number of actions which increase National Influence, offer returns on Prestige investments, or achieve other desirable effects.

Prestige Bonuses:
+10 Base
+10 for each nuclear level
+10 for each intelligence level
+10 for each space level
+10 for each nation in your sphere
+10 for membership in a trade bloc, increasing with each level
+1 for every military unit
+10 for each unit deployed overseas peacefully

+10 for each relevant UN topic started [ONE OFF BONUS, NOT PERMANENTLY WITHIN STATS]
+10 for each non-party conflict resolved [ONE OFF BONUS, NOT PERMANENTLY WITHIN STATS]
+10 for each conflict won [ONE OFF BONUS, NOT PERMANENTLY WITHIN STATS]

Prestige Maluses:
-20 for each unit deployed overseas in combat
-10 for authoritarian governments
-10 for each associated rebel group
-10 current recipient of an international loan
-10 falling short in international finance contributions
-10 UN sanctions

-10 for undiplomatic conduct (exhibiting poor relations with another nation or failure to address international issues) [MAJOR POWERS ONLY, ONE OFF MALUS, NOT PERMANENTLY WITHIN STATS]


Prestige Spending (designed primarily to serve National Influence):

Boost Internal Influence (-10 for democracies, -20 for authoritarians; +5 Influence for democracies, +25 Influence for authoritarians)
State Visits (-2 Prestige; +2 Influence)
Propaganda (-10 Prestige; +10 Influence OR other desired effects specified by player)
Export Culture (-3 Prestige; +2 Influence in target nation)
Missions (-3 Prestige; +3 Influence in target nation)
Humanitarian Aid (-2 Prestige; +1 Influence in target nation, +10 Prestige)
National Academies (-1 Prestige; +1 Influence in target nation, +1 Prestige/turn)
Radio Networks (-1 Prestige; +1 Influence in target nation, +1 Prestige/turn)
Host Summit (-5 Prestige; +1 Influence and +1 Prestige per nation attending. Has internal and targeted Influence effects.)
Push for Foreign Government Reforms/Action (-5 Prestige; no Influence effect, +5 Prestige)


National Influence:
Each nation has a list of the nations with the strongest influence on their internal affairs. This is governed primarily by the influence of Prestige Spending on them - although using the Investment action on another nation will also reap National Influence increases.

National governments will remain free to act as they wish - however they will find that actions directed against a nation with 10% influence on them will fail 10% of the time. Consequently, a nation with 100% influence will be impossible to act against.

Further, nations will find that actions targeting a nation they have an influence share in will be more likely to succeed. If an action fails, a nation with 10% influence will have their action automatically rolled again 10% of the time.

Nations may direct Prestige Spending at themselves in order to preserve their independence of action if they wish.

This has replaced "spheres", to the extent that a nation will be regarded as within your sphere if you have the highest influence on them, and it matches or exceeds their own influence.

e.g.

-UK-
National Influence: 50% USA, 20% France, 15% Germany, 10% UK, 5% China


Intelligence Technology:
Nations will passively gather information on terrorist organisations which will inform their ability to act successfully against terrorist groups. As your Intelligence Level increases, your intelligence gathering and the likelihood of success in anti-terror actions increases. By way of comparison:

Intelligence level 1 (-100, -10/turn) includes primitive secret police structures.
Intelligence level 2 (-200, -20/turn) includes agencies with formal training and structure but lacking moderate techniques and technology.
Intelligence level 3 (-300, -30/turn) includes agencies with regional networks and basic intelligence technologies, but little overseas capability and moderate training.
Intelligence level 4 (-400, -40/turn) includes MI6, DGSE and other with extensive overseas connections with greater expertise in their immediate region, but high level technology and training.
Intelligence level 5 (-500, -50/turn) includes the CIA and other agencies capable of detailed overseas operations, and cutting edge technology, training, and techniques.


Space Technology:
The uses of space are manifold - military and civilian, in war and in peace. Through the investment of time and money, nations are able to reap the benefits of venturing out into the stars. It is free to decrease your Space level.

Space level 1 (-400) enables native communications satellites without having to rely on other nations. Produces +40 permanent economic increase.
Space level 2 (-250, -10/turn) enables spy satellites and other unmanned military uses.
Space level 3 (-300, -30/turn) enables launching human beings into space, and similar missions. Produces one-off +200 Prestige bonus.
Space level 4 (-400, -50/turn) enables establishment of space stations, and similar missions. Produces one-off +150 Prestige bonus.
Space level 5 (-600, -70/turn) enables missions to the Moon, and similar distances. Produces one-off +400 prestige bonus.
Space level 6 (-800, -90/turn) enables missions to nearby planets. Produces one-off +1000 prestige bonus.


Trade Output:
Each nation has a stat for their national Economy, which forms part of the calculations for their total Credit Income. This figure will also determine any given nation's total Trade Output, which may be directed to other nations. This may be utilised as a form of bilateral trade agreement between nations - however in relationships of sphere dominance, frequently minor nations will trade with major nations without a return.

New trade relations can only be formed by redirecting either undirected or already allocated Trade Output. Additional capacity can be obtained by increasing the size of the Economy.


Trading Blocs:
Beyond bilateral trade, nations may establish trading blocs together. There are a number of forms of integration, each imparting increasing credit bonuses, having different effects, and resulting in different maluses. Each nation must pay entry costs to form the bloc, although fellow members may subsidise a poorer member if they wish.

As the level of integration within the bloc increases, the bonuses increase in total - they do not stack.

1. Free Trade Area (200; yields +40 bonus, may impact popularity negatively)
2. Customs Union (100; yields +55 bonus, you may not negotiate FTAs unilaterally, must negotiate as a bloc. Prior FTAs are cancelled.)
2. Common Market (150; yields +70 bonus, at least one third (1/3) of your trade output must be directed to fellow bloc members.)
---
3. Economic and Monetary Union (200; yields +100 bonus, at least one half (1/2) of your trade output must be directed to fellow bloc members. If a bloc member's economy is damaged or sabotaged, yours will also be affected.)
4. Complete Economic Integration (200; adds all economies together totally, requires that all credit spending decisions are made jointly between players)

NB/ Common Market and Customs Union are both level 2 blocs which may be entered into independent of each other. However they must both be entered into to progress to level 3, economic and monetary union.


Debt and Deficits:
There are three sources of debt: National, International, and Institutional.

National debt functions in the same way that debt and deficit payments have always functioned. Where a player runs a negative credit income, they will automatically draw on their national deficit at a standard interest payment rate of -5 credits per turn per 100 credits overdrawn. However, this will now be capped at FOUR (4) times your Economy stat. As a result, any further debt incurred should be sought from other sources.

International debt functions in much the same way as national debt, save that the source of funding will be fellow nations - whether NPC or Player Controlled. You may negotiate your own interest payment rates, and if desired, set a final date by which repayment is required. Players are at liberty to agree fully their own terms.

Institutional debt sources credits from international finance institutions or organisations that provide loans. To the extent that these organisations may be controlled or influenced by a number of players (and possibly NPCs), players seeking institutional loans are at their liberty to agree fully their own terms as with International debt.


International Financial Institutions:
There are 3 main international financial institutions modelled for the purposes of the game: the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank. Each has different rules for granting loans, and will typically make either long term market rate loans, very long term below market rate loans, or grants.

Players may establish new lending institutions by coming together and making a turnly capital commitment under the Contributions sections of the stats. They will be at liberty to decide how this will relate to shareholding and governance of the institution.

The maximum amount of funding received by any institution will be determined by a multiplier on its total turnly contributions received from member nations. This is capped at TEN (10) times the contributions. The higher the multiplier, the greater the risk of economic catastrophe for all member nations if any loan recipient fails to pay back their loan.

E.g. if the IMF receives 200c/turn, and its multiplier is x2, its funding will be 400c each turn, which will go towards its banked credits.


-The International Monetary Fund (IMF)
The multiplier on IMF contributions is TWO (2) times the total turnly contributions.

The most unusual lender is the IMF, which does not operate in merely a lending capacity. As it has an additional goal of preserving the global economy, it will require a recipient nation make certain reforms in order to receive loans.

Examples of reforms include (but are not limited to):
Reducing units, nuclear level, intelligence level
Limiting the use of funds (e.g. only to pay off deficit, only to invest in a given project, etc.)
Making no non-economic expenditures for X year(s)
Enacting market reforms as specified
Requesting a veto on all non-covert and/or non-military actions

The IMF is governed, in its day-to-day function, by the Executive Board. The key EIGHT (8) members are the USA, Japan, Germany, France, the UK, China, Russia and Saudi Arabia. Their vote shares are determined by the size of their contributions, as set by the Board every 5 years.

The Executive Board votes on the admission of new members, the compulsory withdrawal of members, changes to operation, revising contributions every five years, and the granting of loans.


-The World Bank
The multiplier on World Bank contributions is TWO (2) times the total turnly contributions.

The TWELVE (12) Board of Directors members are the USA, Japan, Germany, the UK, France, Russia, Saudi Arabia, India, China, Italy, Canada, the Netherlands and Brazil. Their vote shares are determined by the size of their contributions, set by the Board as required.

The Board of Directors votes on the admission of new members, changes to operation, and the granting of loans.


-The Asian Development Bank (ADB)
The multiplier on ADB contributions is THREE (3) times the total turnly contributions.

The TWELVE (12) Board of Directors members are Japan, the USA, China, India, Australia, Canada, Indonesia, South Korea, Germany, Malaysia, the Philippines and France. Eight of them are regional, the other four are non-regional (USA, Canada, Germany and France). Their vote shares are determined by the size of their contributions, set by the Board as required.

The Board of Directors votes on the admission of new members, changes to operation, and the granting of loans. Loans may only be granted within Asia and the Pacific.


Rebels, Terrorists and Insurgents:
Rebel groups have two measures of their activity: terrorist and insurgent.

Terrorism levels relate to the capabilities of a rebel group to carry out terror attacks - ranging from level 1, very small occasional homemade bombs, and a lack of sophistication, to level 5, capable of carrying out major terror attacks, having access to bomb-making equipment, smuggling firearms, substantial funding and training, etc.

Insurgent levels relate to the standing forces of a rebel group and its claim to legitimacy - ranging from level 1, which includes tribal groups, raiding parties, small cadres of fighters with poor training, armament and leadership, etc., to level 5, operating as essentially a fully-fledged state, with its own government, armed forces, and potentially outside support or recognition.

On a case-by-case basis, depending on the precise circumstances of the group, as they reach the higher Insurgent levels they may gain standing units. This will typically occur as major conflicts break out and the fighting moves towards civil wars, wars of secession, and the like.

In other cases, fighting back against rebel groups will be focused on rolling back their levels towards 0, and preventing them from accomplishing their goals - rather than explicitly defeating them militarily.

Rebel groups may present has having only a Terrorist or Insurgent level, having no activities in the other area.

Each turn, up to 5 random rebel groups will carry out an attack or some activity.

Actions targeting Terrorists:
-15: False Flag Terror Attack
-25: Infiltrate Movement
-25: Launch Raid
Last edited by Huojin on 00:09:55 Sunday, 22 January, 2017, edited 3 times in total.
The Gesarist Manifesto, chapter 5 opening foreword wrote:"The guerrilla must move like a fish in the sea, namely by drinking until you can delude yourself into hoping rich bastards will be gone one day."


  • Louisiana 1792: Fils de la Révolution - GM/Author
  • Balance of Power: 1968 - Iraqi Republic
  • Saenwyn: A Song of Ashes - Corentin of House Tremayne, King of Saenwyn and Defender of the Realm

(excuse me while I blow my own trumpet)

Smyg the slow-running Louisiana
Smyg is pretty much the storytelling epic
Smyg of this century
Smyg Huojin is writing the Great American Novel and it's not even American

Master of Oblivion
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Re: Huojin's Confusing Yet Cool Shit

Postby Master of Oblivion » 20:52:18 Saturday, 21 January, 2017

So my first question or issue is about national influence. It appears really useful to influence a player, but not that useful to influence an NPC.
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Huojin
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Re: Huojin's Confusing Yet Cool Shit

Postby Huojin » 21:06:35 Saturday, 21 January, 2017

Master of Oblivion wrote:So my first question or issue is about national influence. It appears really useful to influence a player, but not that useful to influence an NPC.

Definitely a worthwhile point.

Thinking back to the normal way we do things, "influencing" a nation takes the form of either trying to sway them into your sphere, or to get them to do something for you. I suppose here, Influence is at the same time a measure of how likely they are to do what you ask them to do - a more tangible way of expressing it than GM guidance and "Neutral", "Neutral (Soviet)", "Chinese (Soviet)" or "Soviet".

One change I can think of would be to increase the Prestige reaped from having a nation in your sphere from +10 to +20 or so. Or some change to the X% re-roll. I would rather have some kind of boost on the raw odds of success, rather than a re-roll, but I'm not certain on how best to calculate that. Suggestions are welcome.
The Gesarist Manifesto, chapter 5 opening foreword wrote:"The guerrilla must move like a fish in the sea, namely by drinking until you can delude yourself into hoping rich bastards will be gone one day."


  • Louisiana 1792: Fils de la Révolution - GM/Author
  • Balance of Power: 1968 - Iraqi Republic
  • Saenwyn: A Song of Ashes - Corentin of House Tremayne, King of Saenwyn and Defender of the Realm

(excuse me while I blow my own trumpet)

Smyg the slow-running Louisiana
Smyg is pretty much the storytelling epic
Smyg of this century
Smyg Huojin is writing the Great American Novel and it's not even American

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Re: Huojin's Confusing Yet Cool Shit

Postby RinKou » 01:06:59 Sunday, 22 January, 2017

Man, I hope you know some Excel magic to make processing a turn faster, because this is some complicated numbers.

Potential exploit: radio stations and the like cost very little prestige to set up and recoup their prestige investment within a turn. Maybe make setting them up cost credits (and implement upkeep in credits?) to make it a credit for prestige/influence swap.
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Huojin
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Re: Huojin's Confusing Yet Cool Shit

Postby Huojin » 01:17:11 Sunday, 22 January, 2017

Yeah, the numbers are a doozy. To check how they hold up with a slightly smaller power, I've drafted some UK stats, since the USA is normally a special case in vastness. They look slightly more manageable.

Still not included:
+10 prestige for each nation in your sphere
-10 prestige for each associated rebel group

-United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland-
Prime Minister: Gordon Brown
National Influence: 40% UK, 25% USA, 10% France, 10% Germany, 5% China, 5% Saudi Arabia, 5% Australia
Prestige: 350 [+96; +10 Base, +30 Nuclear, +40 Intelligence, +20 Space, +6 Units, +30 Trade Bloc, -40 Combat Deploy]
Domestic Popularity: Moderate
Foreign Popularity: Moderate
Military Units: 4/6 [-20, 1 in Iraq, 1 in Afghanistan, -60 maintenance]
Nuclear Level: 3/7 [-30 maintenance]
Intelligence Level: 4/5 [-40 maintenance]
Space Level: 2/6 [-10 maintenance]
Economy: +265 [30 to Germany, 30 to France, 30 to Canada, 30 to China, 20 to Iraq, 20 to Italy, 20 to Spain, +15 Portugal, 10 to Netherlands, 10 to Poland, 10 to USA, 10 to Japan, 10 to Australia, 10 to Afghanistan, 10 to Saudi Arabia]
Contributions: -40 [20/20 World Bank, 20/20 IMF]
National Debt: -60 [1140/1140 owed]
International Debt: -15 [300 Germany (L2015, -5 interest); 200 Spain (L2015, -5 interest); 150 Italy (E2011, -5 interest)]
Institutional Debt: 0
Credit Income: +180 [+70 EU, +40 USA, +20 Germany, +20 France, +10 China, +10 Canada, +10 Australia, +10 Italy]
Conflicts: War on Terror, War in Afghanistan, Iraq War


I think there are probably some things that can be resolved with better formatting, but I'm not sure. I think the most awkward increases mainly relate to Trade Output and International Debt, since everything else (except Prestige and Influence) are equatable to mechanics we had before (Contributions = Foreign Aid, Trade Input = Bonuses, National Debt is still Debt, etc.). So part of the problem may lie there.

I was talking to Smyg and it's possible we could include international debt obligations separately by still listing the cost up top and putting the loan details underneath, or elsewhere in the news.

Credit Income: +180 [+70 EU, +40 USA, +20 Germany, +20 France, +10 China, +10 Canada, +10 Australia, +10 Italy]
Conflicts: War on Terror, War in Afghanistan, Iraq War
-----
300 owed to Germany (L2015, -5 interest)
200 owed to Spain (L2015, -5 interest)
150 owed to Italy (E2011, -5 interest)


This kind of thing. I'm not certain though.

Another idea might be to remove Space Levels, since I've tried to create a post-Space Race way to model national space exploration but I'm not totally satisfied with it. It's a similar story with Intelligence Levels, but they're slightly more part and parcel of the new mechanic for Terrorism.

As for Radio Networks and the like, yeah, I agree I'm not totally happy about the potential Prestige returns there. I prefer the idea of a Prestige -> Influence swap, but chatting with MoO made me want to try and find a way it could work. I'm increasingly inclined to ditch the Prestige returns for Humanitarian Aid, National Academies, Radio Networks, Hosting Summits and Pushing for Foreign Government Reforms/Action. Seems a little superfluous, looking back at it.
The Gesarist Manifesto, chapter 5 opening foreword wrote:"The guerrilla must move like a fish in the sea, namely by drinking until you can delude yourself into hoping rich bastards will be gone one day."


  • Louisiana 1792: Fils de la Révolution - GM/Author
  • Balance of Power: 1968 - Iraqi Republic
  • Saenwyn: A Song of Ashes - Corentin of House Tremayne, King of Saenwyn and Defender of the Realm

(excuse me while I blow my own trumpet)

Smyg the slow-running Louisiana
Smyg is pretty much the storytelling epic
Smyg of this century
Smyg Huojin is writing the Great American Novel and it's not even American

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Re: Huojin's Confusing Yet Cool Shit

Postby Gesar » 16:02:22 Sunday, 22 January, 2017

I'm with Rin on being nervous about more numbers: you get a couple of veterans in a game and turns become complicated enough as is. And while the system itself looks sound, it brings up two major concerns for me: the whole credits as capability to act as opposed to money (do we really need a system to simulate Japan's economic clout?) and the power creep associated with that. What we have here is accurate in that the developing world has more influence in economic goings-on, but I'd be worried that it'd be a headache for players who don't want to retake an algebra class to live their dream of being Tony Blair, and more importantly make a challenging role (minor but internationally influential powers like Iran etc) even moreso.

In short: the changes are neat, but adjust the scope of the game in a way that seems like it's more work for less focus on the actual conflicts of BOP.
Saenwyn: A Song of Ashes: Storyteller

Louisiana 1792: Fils de la Révolution: Monsieur le Commissaire de l'Intérieur Thomas Francois Jérôme Cossard, Mayor of Saint-Louis and editor of L'Ami de la République
Liberty in Dark Waters: Leopold Karl von Stenhielm, Baron af Rödesund, Knight and Commander of the Orders of His Majesty the King, convicted traitor
Balance of Power 1968: Mwalimu Julius Nyerere, President and Baba wa Taifa of the United Republic of Tanzania

Smyg wrote:The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of Gesar coping with being a total fucking a-grade revolutionary thinker


Spoiler:
#DraftGesar

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Re: Huojin's Confusing Yet Cool Shit

Postby Serenissima » 16:13:19 Sunday, 22 January, 2017

I agree with Rin and Ges. It looks interesting, and addresses some of the issues I'd been looking at in my much, much smaller BoP rules modification I fiddled with for the Kaiserreich idea, but turn processing looks like it would take centuries. I might try to play this system but I'd pity whoever had to GM it.
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Re: Huojin's Confusing Yet Cool Shit

Postby Huojin » 22:36:36 Sunday, 22 January, 2017

I absolutely agree with you guys that there are too many numbers. I've posted it at this stage because I finished the stuff I was incorporating and I'm hoping for any suggestions and ideas for where things can be cut back on, reduced, or removed.

I've also been hopeful that this system (namely the Prestige and National Influence) side of things would help better reflect soft power so we could have more complex post-Cold War games and better simulate the influence and clout of nations like Iran, Gesar. But I agree that there are issues with credits =! money. Ideally, we'd still have "Economy" and factors like that scaled normally as in BOPs, and Japan would instead see some stronger Prestige and National Influence play rather than anything stemming from Credits and actions associated with them.
The Gesarist Manifesto, chapter 5 opening foreword wrote:"The guerrilla must move like a fish in the sea, namely by drinking until you can delude yourself into hoping rich bastards will be gone one day."


  • Louisiana 1792: Fils de la Révolution - GM/Author
  • Balance of Power: 1968 - Iraqi Republic
  • Saenwyn: A Song of Ashes - Corentin of House Tremayne, King of Saenwyn and Defender of the Realm

(excuse me while I blow my own trumpet)

Smyg the slow-running Louisiana
Smyg is pretty much the storytelling epic
Smyg of this century
Smyg Huojin is writing the Great American Novel and it's not even American


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