Bringing in new members

More or less what it says on the tin.
Huojin
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Bringing in new members

Post by Huojin » 17:50:10 Monday, 03 December, 2012

CWestfall wrote:
OYID wrote:Maybe there should be another thread with another poll, but I would like to voice my disapproval of no longer voting to accept new members. I voted "no" because, indeed, I don't know Clancy. Even though he's getting approved, I still think its important to hold on to this practice. I think it's a great thing that we vote on who enters, and if that means the forum will grow slowly, so be it (I'm actually opposed to the forum growing at all, but that's another issue).
We'll probably have to have a separate discussion about that sooner rather than later.
Well lets do that now.

If the forum doesn't grow, it won't stay the same, it'll shrink. I don't want to speak for other people, though it certainly appears to be the case for others too, but I'm increasingly busy now, and it shows no sign of letting up, really. Summer breaks will still be alright, maybe Winter breaks, but on the whole people's lives tend to trend towards becoming ever more complicated.

If we still want this community to exist in any form, we have to grow it and bring new people in. And be patient with the new people. But if we're bringing in people wholly new to the community, it makes no sense to vote on them as no one save the person bringing them in will know them. I think we can trust people's judgements on who would fit into our community and who wouldn't. But no growth is really not an option.

Also, I'd like to get all nostalgic for a moment and remember back to the days of Fo' Dolo before Merdy lost his shit. Around the time of Game V. Aside from the main game (which had over 30 players, I believe) there were a number of successful side games, people actually did their newspapers, there was lots of diplomacy and brinkmanship in the UN forum, the forum was active and fun.

So yeah. The more the merrier. To a certain point. Obviously if we had, say, 1000 people here, that'd be going to extremes. But there've been more people than this before, and it tends to be fine.

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Smyg
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Re: Bringing in new members

Post by Smyg » 18:04:06 Monday, 03 December, 2012

I've invited everyone I could ever possibly invite.

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Re: Bringing in new members

Post by Huojin » 18:09:04 Monday, 03 December, 2012

Smyg wrote:I've invited everyone I could ever possibly invite.
Does this include your old RevLeft friends who were on Patton but then joined Merdy's funtime crazy forum after everything went to shit? Because I see no reason why they shouldn't be invited to Molotov now. It's a shame they got left behind. MCC joined under a different name, but he hasn't been on in an age.

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Re: Bringing in new members

Post by Smyg » 18:13:12 Monday, 03 December, 2012

Huojin wrote:
Smyg wrote:I've invited everyone I could ever possibly invite.
Does this include your old RevLeft friends who were on Patton but then joined Merdy's funtime crazy forum after everything went to shit? Because I see no reason why they shouldn't be invited to Molotov now. It's a shame they got left behind. MCC joined under a different name, but he hasn't been on in an age.
First of all: Communists do not have friends. They have comrades. It is a far more stale, unfriendly relationship. And I have no contact with them. And I'm fairly sure at least one of them came over?

MCC I invited, as I know him from another non-leftist community, but he's horrifyingly lazy, so yeah. Trust me, I've used up all my reserves of game-willing buddies.

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Re: Bringing in new members

Post by OYID » 19:11:25 Monday, 03 December, 2012

Smyg, I'm so stealing that line. :D

Now, Huojin has a point, and his Fo'Dolo scenario sure sounds like fun (though as I've never seen it, I'm inclined to believe it's an exaggerated nostalgic account). Even then, I believe voting on every new member is an important part of this community, and opening up jeopardizes the forum. As for people vouching for others, I think they should also be asked to state their case, just as those against are asked to justify themselves. Maybe talk about his personality, post links to where he's posted, do a sort of résumé thing for each candidate. I mean, since we already opened the democratic can of worms by electing admins (something that I disapproved of from the start) then, as elected "officials", they must be as transparent as possible.

(PS: man do I feel silly writing about forum politics. If it seems I'm coming a bit too strong, don't worry: coming off too strong is standard OYID procedure. This is all in good fun, you guys :) )

(PPS: but seriously let's vote on who gets in)
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Re: Bringing in new members

Post by CWestfall » 00:12:17 Tuesday, 04 December, 2012

As long as people are saying who they invite (As in, positing in a thread somewhere), I'd rather just leave it as a matter of reputation than having to vote (With the exception of former Pattonites, due to large quantities of baggage. I am most certainly against not voting on Pattonites.) where you are partially accountable for people you invite if they go off their rocker and start screwing shit up. That worked fairly effectively in spring of 2011 on the Minecraft server.

In my mind at least, the voting process was mostly about trying to come to a community consensus, with the intent of minimizing the amount of drama that would transfer over here from Patton. Entirely new members wouldn't have that problem. And besides, if Gesar came to me tomorrow and evaluated the personality of a potential invitee, I'd trust his judgement. Same goes for everyone else here, unless they prove otherwise (Long-time minecrafters likely remember the time Apoptosis invited that one asshole who vandalized the entire server).
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Re: Bringing in new members

Post by Langben » 05:41:11 Tuesday, 04 December, 2012

OYID wrote:...Even then, I believe voting on every new member is an important part of this community, and opening up jeopardizes the forum.
We have 5 admins and 2 mods, elected by popular vote at regular intervals, ostensibly to ensure the smooth operation of the forum and related items. This would be a good number for your average board, but is entirely overkill if all you expect to need of them is occasional reformatting and updating everyone's silly titles. I'm curious how much damage you worry a malicious user (Or, for the sake of argument, any arbitrarily large group of them) might cause?

Aside from the Patton leftovers, nobody else we bring in is going to be known by enough of the player base to warrant a full vote; it'd be entirely meaningless having nothing upon which to form an opinion, especially with inevitable voter apathy and arbitrary obstructionism. While this doesn't actively harm anyone, it does waste time and achieve exactly nothing.
As long as people are saying who they invite, I'd rather just leave it as a matter of reputation than having to vote where you are partially accountable for people you invite if they go off their rocker and start screwing shit up.
This would be my solution as well. Make a post for a suggested new member pretty much like this, enough to make it clear you think they'd fit in. Instead of a vote, it'd be a matter of raising real objections (e.g. I have had negative experiences with this person previously, The last three people you invited bailed after two turns, etc.), or letting them go about business until an actual problem arises.

I understand why you guys aren't keen on bringing new people in too quickly, but I also think that stunting the userbase with unhelpful procedures isn't a solution to the problem you're trying to address.

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Re: Bringing in new members

Post by OYID » 06:27:04 Tuesday, 04 December, 2012

Don't you think it's a huge unnecessary risk to let people in based on just one recommendation? I stand by my proposal of presenting a candidate's "portfolio", so to speak, and judge them on their previous activity in other communities. As for what I'm afraid of, I think we may be missing the bigger picture here: how long is it before the new guys become the majority and start electing admins among their own ranks? How long before they change the rules? If we're going to be more open, I think we should either have no elections, or do something like what Tsaeb proposed which is a limited democracy sort of deal, where only senior members get to vote. Bottom line is that such an open democracy as we have now is good in a small community, but once you start letting strangers in (especially after just one recommendation) it is no longer an asset but a risk (that is, if we consider it an asset at all, which it isn't necessarily).

The Internet is bigger and scarier than our wildest dreams, I'm all for keeping it at bay as long as possible.
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Re: Bringing in new members

Post by Snacks » 07:18:30 Tuesday, 04 December, 2012

OYID wrote:Don't you think it's a huge unnecessary risk to let people in based on just one recommendation?
No. We're a gaming forum, not Fort Knox; If someone who's been approved proves to be a troublemaker they can be dealt with, that's part of what moderators and admins are here for. While I understand your "forum resume" suggestion is made with the best intentions, to put it bluntly we do not need to implement a bunch of bureaucratic nonsense. For those of you who disagree and know what I'm talking about, I did not come to Molotov for DEM-level bullshit.

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Re: Bringing in new members

Post by Langben » 07:21:52 Tuesday, 04 December, 2012

OYID wrote:The Internet is bigger and scarier than our wildest dreams, I'm all for keeping it at bay as long as possible.
I'm not talking about posting our URL to the dark corners of the Internet, for the record. The worst I expect a board for forum games to pick up would be trolls and spammers, especially if we're doing peer-approved recruiting. Vetoing a candidate because the recruiter hasn't completed a full game here on Molotov seems like a completely valid concern to me.

As far as some kind of faction sweeping in and taking a majority, that is a strong argument for amending some sort of seniority consideration into Admin voting. Not exactly democracy-in-action anymore, but certainly a conversation worth having. Realistically though, a wave of incoming users shouldn't be hard to identify and address, especially as they would originate from someone who was here already.

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Re: Bringing in new members

Post by Snacks » 07:31:20 Tuesday, 04 December, 2012

For the record, I'd probably be willing to support taking the length of time one has spent here into consideration during admin nomination. As I've already stated in less words, though. Structure is good but there is a fine line between structure and restriction when it comes to implementing rules. Restriction is rarely conducive to people having a good time. Making people jump through hoops to join by recounting their internet history strikes me as being on the restriction end of the scale.

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Re: Bringing in new members

Post by CWestfall » 08:13:57 Tuesday, 04 December, 2012

As long as we keep admin activation on we don't have to worry about random spammers joining up to sell us cheap hormone supplements. As long as we continue to have fair and balanced discussions, based on the recommendation (and reputation) of the inviter, we don't have to worry about people doing the forum equivalent of dumping buckets of lava all over the entire world (I have no idea what that equivalent might be). The important thing, in my mind, is for everybody to be involved in the discussion.

On that note. I'm feeling some pretty serious waves of factionalism/protectionism coming off this discussion. It's counter productive to think in those terms; we're all just here to play forum games in good company. If we disagree, we'll talk it out, and if there are still issues, a compromise can be reached.
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Re: Bringing in new members

Post by Langben » 10:12:37 Tuesday, 04 December, 2012

CWestfall wrote:...we don't have to worry about people doing the forum equivalent of dumping buckets of lava all over the entire world (I have no idea what that equivalent might be).
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OYID
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Re: Bringing in new members

Post by OYID » 03:14:11 Wednesday, 05 December, 2012

If the forum doesn't grow, it won't stay the same, it'll shrink.
This just occured to me, but what if we come up with population goals? Say, for example: we need a new user each six months and one for every one that goes awol for a month, so every time 6 months go by or someone is unactive, we let someone else in. We could have a waiting list of viable candidates, and contact them through email or other means when a space is free.
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Re: Bringing in new members

Post by scorpion » 03:24:04 Wednesday, 05 December, 2012

OYID wrote:
If the forum doesn't grow, it won't stay the same, it'll shrink.
This just occured to me, but what if we come up with population goals? Say, for example: we need a new user each six months and one for every one that goes awol for a month, so every time 6 months go by or someone is unactive, we let someone else in. We could have a waiting list of viable candidates, and contact them through email or other means when a space is free.

Why? We are a community. Communities need to grow in order to remain alive. You're acting like we will be hit with a flood of users of whom none of us knows, which is highly unlikely given the nature of this forum and the games on it. It takes a certain type of person to even be interested in these games and this forum. Why the hell would anyone wait around 6 months for a spot to open up. We are better off bringing in new people and getting to know them. Half the guys here now i didn't know when i joined Patton. Bgknight,Smyg, and Orago for example. They all came after i joined, yet I've gotten to know them and call them friends. There is no reason why we cannot do the same with newcomers.
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