Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

More or less what it says on the tin.

Display select forums to guests?

Agree
18
78%
Disagree
5
22%
 
Total votes: 23

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Re: Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

Post by Falck » 01:18:18 Thursday, 07 March, 2013

I voted yes, before Gesar or Snacks had any chance of clarifying their point. I did that, because I though the first round of voting was pretty much decisive, and in my opinion, for the good of the community (as far as I can comment about it), but my immediate though after re-reading the topics, I felt my vote was unfair.
I felt strongly for one side and didn't care what the other side had to say.
Gesar wrote:I'm not even going to bother to explain further, because you guys are re-hashing the same bullshit over and over. Whatever, I'm just not going to be around as much anymore. It's not really fucking worth it, if I'm just going to be thrown under the bus
I never was a long time member in Patton, and it's hard for me to relate to your problem. I'm going ahead assuming we're having a consensus that throwing any member of this community under the bus will have a negative impact on the community as a whole sooner or later. We're doing this through vote, but what we're looking for and need in decisions is consensus more than majority.

If anyone thinks it would be for the good of the community as of a whole to postpone the opening of viewing rights, I think it would be important to raise those views now, rather than later. The obvious solution that should in the first glace satisfy all points of views, would be that we postpone the policy of openess through a period of transition. If there's a period of time during which the diffuculties between the two forums can be dealt with, the timeline should be raised to the table. If the situation is considered unresolvable, there's no point delaying the decision.


Like I said in the opening, I voted hastly on this issue. If anyone has something on their mind, this would be the time to speak openly.
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Re: Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

Post by RinKou » 01:39:37 Thursday, 07 March, 2013

The vote was overwhelmingly in favor to let guests view the forum last time, and it's looking like that now too. So we can come to the conclusion that a considerable majority Molotov wants the forum to be visible to guests in some capacity.

So, really, we shouldn't even bother with that vote anymore - what we should be concerning ourselves with is the fact that voting on this matter again does nothing to address the point and hard-block that Gesar brought up.

What we should be discussing (and not voting on) right now is what can be done to get both Molotov and Patton to positions where making the boards here visible won't cause any problems. I know we've had problems with this in the past, but it's still something that needs to be addressed. And to be honest, how many of us stumbled onto any of the Molly-predecessors through finding the forum and going "This seems like a community I would like to join."? If we have a situation in which we have a hard-block and non-extant data on the benefits of that course of action, that shouldn't be much of a choice.

While I do agree that this is a case where shit should be over and done with, and that we shouldn't let crazy exes dictate what we do with our lives, the fact of the matter is that Patton is not a crazy ex. This a case where we have a couple of hard-heads who are too stubborn to play nicely.

So unless we get further information re: how Gesar and Snacks (and I) will be affected on Patton and what Molotov really stands to gain, let's put this vote to rest and just keep it discussiony.
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Re: Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

Post by Gesar » 01:54:23 Thursday, 07 March, 2013

Look, I'm no good at conflict, nor am I at confrontation. I can't abandon people even after they do things I don't like. That's why I'm here, even though Labine lied/misled me about things regarding the purpose of this forum. It's why I've been sticking up for both sides, and why I don't want drama.

This could probably die down yeah, but it won't. People on both sides are curious about what's happening to the other forum, and some don't like that. That's not going to change. The situation was too drastic, which a lot of people here don't understand because they're new, or only played in one or two games with a certain group of people.

People are gonna look, take a long look, and notice things that will annoy them. Stats people made, people playing games that they don't want playing, etc. That's easy for you all to dismiss with "oh I was banned so fuck you Gesar" but I'm still going to have to deal with it, explain it, etc.

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Re: Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

Post by Langben » 04:58:52 Thursday, 07 March, 2013

Gesar wrote:People are gonna look, take a long look, and notice things that will annoy them. Stats people made, people playing games that they don't want playing, etc. That's easy for you all to dismiss with "oh I was banned so fuck you Gesar" but I'm still going to have to deal with it, explain it, etc.
Do me a favor, and lead with these kind of details when I ask for them. This was my exact same problem with Labine/Huojin, and you guys only seem to respond when I come at you head on. I don't like it any more than you do, especially when you initially come across as dismissive and insulting.
Rinkou wrote:What we should be discussing (and not voting on) right now is what can be done to get both Molotov and Patton to positions where making the boards here visible won't cause any problems. I know we've had problems with this in the past, but it's still something that needs to be addressed. And to be honest, how many of us stumbled onto any of the Molly-predecessors through finding the forum and going "This seems like a community I would like to join."? If we have a situation in which we have a hard-block and non-extant data on the benefits of that course of action, that shouldn't be much of a choice.
You're dismissing an admittedly small change to the presentation of this forum because it threatens your dual-citizenship status. I'm not expecting a line to form outside our little club just because we change the drapes, but neither am I finding the notion that this place is your dirty little secret and it should stay that way very endearing.
While I do agree that this is a case where shit should be over and done with, and that we shouldn't let crazy exes dictate what we do with our lives, the fact of the matter is that Patton is not a crazy ex. This a case where we have a couple of hard-heads who are too stubborn to play nicely.
This is a case where you are letting foul mouthed children tell you what your choices are. I stuck my neck out when we were initially keeping things amicable, to try to prevent bullshit flying everywhere and chasing off more people like they did YKL. I ended up getting dumped as part of appeasement to try to keep the kids happy, after playing by all the rules/signing up for games and sending turns. The best anyone could muster then was "Whoops, that sucks".
Now you guys are worried this will rock the little bit of peace you managed to buy for yourselves, instead of admitting that playing their game was a nonstarter to begin with.

I'm still chewing on this. This vote/project was never on a deadline, but this format does stimulate participation which is what I'm looking for.

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Re: Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

Post by BgKnight » 06:14:59 Thursday, 07 March, 2013

Well, this is no longer about the vote and is more about what to do with the situation that arises. Now I must say beforehand, I would never throw Gesar, Snacks or Rin under the bus in the name of something that is not that much of importance. But I remember how I came to the forum (Patton), I didn't register at first, I just took a good long look of it (since it was open back then) and saw Scorp's game and 2138 that was being planned, so I fell in love with them and went on to become a regular member.

Now I realize some of the newer members where invited and this sometimes works like a sifting mechanism where we weight out people that are actually worth to the community and would stick around for longer. I also realize, that Gesar, Snacks and Rin might have a bit of a trouble, but we can't always stay hidden, not us, not Patton. And we can't constantly fight for something that is dead and done already. Sooner or later, we need to finally live and let live... I don't care about people using Stats created by one of our members and I hope other members don't mind as well, if the Pattonites mind, their opinions should be considered, but why would we limit our gaming experience in their name?

I hope that Gesar could see my and other people's position, we are not trying to get him into trouble or anything, this is long behind us as far as we know and we really couldn't give a damn about Patton. We are trying the live and let live principle, or at least I am. But then again, I could be wrong, maybe the discussion should be postponed for a later date, when, if, relations better.
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Re: Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

Post by Coin » 11:22:52 Thursday, 07 March, 2013

If there are specific concerns about certain forums, they should be raised. The Game Ideas one, for instance, is legitimate, if debatable as I would argue the ideas forum is one that would be very appealling to a new member. I'm also aware of how prospective new members might get involved - I played on Paradox Interactive first, back in the day, before moving to Diplo, where I started visiting Fordolo and Patton. I registered for the latter eventually. Granted, these days that doesn't seem so common, but still.

I am however also in the same position as Goofy Re: trying to be mature on Patton + Molotov, and getting banned out of the blue. This isn't to say that I believe we should make portions of the forum viewable to spite them, merely that they quite clearly aren't concerned about us, ergo why should we concern ourselves with them. Regarding Ges's points on the matter, I'm confused as to how exactly you're being thrown "under the bus" :V so I'll await further clarification on the issue. People looking is understandable, but how is it going to annoy them in anything other than a spiteful fashion?
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Re: Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

Post by Snacks » 23:24:44 Thursday, 07 March, 2013

As someone who had the honor of having my trust betrayed by people here I considered friends because they wanted to break away to run their forum without anyone being the wiser and being willing to give them that trust again anyways, and as someone who made my disagreement with your banning known (which is the extent of what I can fucking do) don't try to fucking act like we somehow don't give a shit about you or people here, Goofy. I'm sure it's nice to act high and mighty about how we supposedly threw you under the bus (I'm not sure why you think we had a ton of choice in what happened on Patton, especially Rin and I, and that we didn't try to make do with the shitty options we did have) and to try to demean us by acting like we're treating Molotov as a dirty secret.

Meanwhile you're effectively throwing us under the bu by dismissing our concerns about having to deal with even more bullshit with an attitude of "we're not on Patton any more, only they are" which *is* spiteful at worst and a case of "I've got mine" at best, which is still shitty from a group of people I was told betrayed my trust because they cared about "community", which is why they needed to keep everything secret and hidden before, and now apparently the reason most of them want it not to be secret, because the vague chance of getting more people from google is so obviously more important than dealing with the issue of people who are supposed to already be a part of it. Considering this forum exists in the first place because of people coddling someone's gigantic hissy-fit over a fucking set of stats the fact you aren't willing to deal with a member's concerns over being fucking harassed because of his participation here and actually trusting you guys is just the cherry on the hypocrisy sundae

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Re: Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

Post by Gesar » 01:45:06 Friday, 08 March, 2013

Snacks pretty much summed up my feelings on the matter, but Tsaeb said something on IRC that I'd be interested in hearing laid out.

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Re: Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

Post by Rising Phoenix » 02:07:20 Friday, 08 March, 2013

Snacks wrote:As someone who had the honor of having my trust betrayed by people here I considered friends because they wanted to break away to run their forum without anyone being the wiser and being willing to give them that trust again anyways, and as someone who made my disagreement with your banning known (which is the extent of what I can fucking do) don't try to fucking act like we somehow don't give a shit about you or people here, Goofy. I'm sure it's nice to act high and mighty about how we supposedly threw you under the bus (I'm not sure why you think we had a ton of choice in what happened on Patton, especially Rin and I, and that we didn't try to make do with the shitty options we did have) and to try to demean us by acting like we're treating Molotov as a dirty secret.
I do not know about most of this stuff, since I was still new while this was going on. I will, however, comment on your following paragraphs:
Snacks wrote:Meanwhile you're effectively throwing us under the bu by dismissing our concerns about having to deal with even more bullshit with an attitude of "we're not on Patton any more, only they are" which *is* spiteful at worst and a case of "I've got mine" at best,[...]
As someone whose ban can be safely considered unsubstantiated, I am going to point at you this simple fact: Patton is Patton and Molotov and Molotov. If A is A and B is B, why should A care about what B is doing? Specially considering that this not some 'underground movement to overthrow Der Fuhrer Sonny', but rather 'a place to play forum games without unnecesary and useless melodrama'.
Snacks wrote:[...]which is still shitty from a group of people I was told betrayed my trust because they cared about "community", which is why they needed to keep everything secret and hidden before,[...]
Back then Molotov could have been classified as something mixed with, but not directed by, Patton. Most of us were Patton members, and had I not been bannned I would still have kept playing forum games. That was the only reason I got there in the first place, and the only reason I remained despite the constant annoyance of Sonny and his two acolytes (to whom, I should add, I had already long apologized for my n00bish mistakes and acts).

However, regardless of whatever Patton's state may be (being banned is not conductive to getting news, by the way) I think it is clear that Molotov should not be 'Patton's shadow'. There is no reason to act like it is. As said before, originally this was a place to rebel against something, OK. But not anymore. We sticked togheter because we kept our goal: Forum games yes, forum drama no.
Snacks wrote:[...]and now apparently the reason most of them want it not to be secret, because the vague chance of getting more people from google[...]
Actually, I once tried to recruit a couple of people. Bring them here and in other places I visit regularly. Do you know what they told me about this and another forum? "Closed forums are a problem. We need to know how they run the games." And you know, the bigger problem here is that I agree.
Snacks wrote:[...]is so obviously more important than dealing with the issue of people who are supposed to already be a part of it.[...]
The problem is not here, Snacks, it is over there. Sonny banned me? Fine. His forum, his rules. I accept it, even if I do not agree with it.

The issue here is that if we do *something* (I hope it is certainly not something as excrucitantly idiotic as "they made the forum viewable by guests!", to be honest), you and Gesar will [apparently] 'suffer' through some sort of problem. But who is the true cause here? Who is actually being a d1ck for the sake of it? Think about that, please.
Snacks wrote:[...]Considering this forum exists in the first place because of people coddling someone's gigantic hissy-fit over a fucking set of stats[...]
I was banned as collateral damage initially, then due to Sonny's arbitrary actions afterwards. I can thus say that Molotov is the only place I, and others who not even have partaken in the drama at all (people like navyseacadet come to mind), can come to play similarly-styled forum games.

Had Sonny told me "shut up and play the games", I would have done so perfectly fine. But no, I was banned out of the blue. Ergo, me going to somewhere else was inevitable. It just happened to many others were banned/had grievances with Sonny and thus were forced to leave Patton. I followed them.
Snacks wrote:[...]the fact you aren't willing to deal with a member's concerns over being fucking harassed because of his participation here and actually trusting you guys is just the cherry on the hypocrisy sundae
I am going to reiterate it one last time: The problem is not here. I am not sure what I, or others, can do to help you deal with your situation on Patton. If it were up to me you would not have such problem at all, Patton and Molotov would go on just fine like any two separate communities.

But it is not up to me. Only a very small fraction of that whole problem is up to me, and almost half of it is up to Sonny. I apologize for being unable to help you, Snacks. But I will make this clear: There is no reason I should support the forum being limited because someone, somewhere else, dislikes me for [in truth] petty reasons.

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Re: Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

Post by scorpion » 04:06:08 Friday, 08 March, 2013

I just want to re-iterate a point Rising Phoenix made. Patton is Patton, and Molotov is Molotov. They should not be concerned about what goes on over here after banning a lot of us. I'm sure as hell not concerned what goes on over there, and I won't make sneaky attempts to find out either because what they do does not bother me in the slightest.

This forum isn't theirs to run plain and simple. I realize Snacks, Gesar and Rin, you guys are still on both as I would've liked to have been. However you receiving grief from any of them, for changes over here, speaks volumes about those giving the grief. Friends don't attack friends, if they attack and harass you there for something going on here they are not your friends or care very little about how you feel. It's not your responsibility to play diplomat between the two forums and explain things. Make that known. If people did that to you in person,god i hope you'd speak up instead of being batted around.


I voted yes for some parts to be seen as public because as Bgknight and RP said it has it's uses. Some people want to see a bit before they register which is understandable. A few of the guys i brought in wanted the same thing. What it allows is accessibility which in turn allows for interest to spawn. This will perhaps allow the forum to grow ensuring survival if core members become busy etc. In my mind survival of the forum should take precedence over everything else.
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Re: Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

Post by BgKnight » 07:06:56 Friday, 08 March, 2013

Both sides made their positions clear, now I will not comment again since we would be saying the same thing. I am saddened that Snacks and Gesar feel betrayed since I consider them to be very important members of the community and very good friends of mine and I would never wish them to feel that way. I am sorry that it has come to this and that this topic turned into a drama fest, so in order to keep the peace, I suggest we keep it down till Tsaeb posts, so we will know what Tsaeb proposed.

That is to say, everyone is free to act as he pleases, so if you have something of substance to say that is not covered in Scorp and RP's posts, don't let me stop you. :D
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Re: Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

Post by Langben » 07:32:46 Friday, 08 March, 2013

Snacks wrote:As someone who had the honor of having my trust betrayed by people here I considered friends because they wanted to break away to run their forum without anyone being the wiser and being willing to give them that trust again anyways, and as someone who made my disagreement with your banning known (which is the extent of what I can fucking do) don't try to fucking act like we somehow don't give a shit about you or people here, Goofy. I'm sure it's nice to act high and mighty about how we supposedly threw you under the bus (I'm not sure why you think we had a ton of choice in what happened on Patton, especially Rin and I, and that we didn't try to make do with the shitty options we did have) and to try to demean us by acting like we're treating Molotov as a dirty secret.
Scorp and RP are on point, so let me address my part in this as well as I can.

Until I came down hard on Huojin/Labine, I didn't know there were folks who hadn't been reached out to about Molotov. That trust issue is something I gave them plenty of grief over at the time, and that they've owned and apologized for to anybody bringing it up as best I can tell. The same story here with Gesar, I don't get the full story until I start pushing buttons, and that's only after saying he might bail over this and hanging that around my neck. I'm not going to ask everybody to be open and honest about every irrelevant detail, but neither am I going to let this sort of thing stand in the way of the community.

The fact is, there is no "high and mighty" intended in the tone of my posts. I'm about honesty and fairness, and the honest truth is that this community responds to that kind of aggressiveness. That's why Patton let Sonny throw tantrums and be a colossal asshole, but still reinstated him as an admin. That being the case, I've adapted that assertiveness as best I can towards the overarching goal of "no bullshit". I'm constantly checking with Tsaeb and others to be sure I don't cross too many lines, but I will pursue things the way I think I need to.

This back and forth about who got thrown under what bus is moot, at least as far as Molotov should be concerned. I understand that dealing with those people is unpleasant, and I've got nothing but sympathy to that situation because I lived it, but when RP and Scorpion are both affirming my suspicion that this change has upside for this forum, I need alternatives and answers that aren't rooted in "Sonny/Jack/KP will hate this". I'm not pushing this forward because I know exactly how unpleasant it would make things for you three, but unless your outlook on negotiating those chuckle fucks into rationality is MUCH better than mine, you're asking Molotov to stop on their account, not just yours.

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Re: Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

Post by Langben » 07:37:05 Friday, 08 March, 2013

BgKnight wrote:I am sorry that it has come to this and that this topic turned into a drama fest
While I understand that Gesar/Snacks/Rin feel pressured by the situation, I don't believe this discussion has become a drama fest. Anybody who does feel so should certainly speak up, lest discourse is silenced rather than encouraged.

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Re: Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

Post by Tsaeb XIII » 12:31:26 Friday, 08 March, 2013

Okay, so I'm not much interested into getting into arguments here - I'm looking for a solution that potentially gives everybody a bit of what they want without unduly stuffing anybody around. I'd like to propose a vote on an amended version of the proposition we previously voted upon. In this version, we make public to guests one active game as well as the New Members forum, to which we may add a list of games under development. As it currently stands, I believe WWII BoP would be the optimal selection, as none of those affected by the Patton issues are current players (unless I've had a terrible dodgy scan of the player list, in which case I apologise). In the future, however, I think it would be best that if we have a main game running, that it should be the game made public. Under this model, nobody who is a dual member of Patton and Molly is forced to reveal their activity to any of the problematic Patton members. They can self ban from these games, or if they decide they no longer have any concerns, join these games as any other player. However, people can still find out about us by stumbling on Molly during a random search, they can see an example of what our games are like, and can see a list of the games that we have (and possibly those we will have in the near future). This does put more onus on the admin team to keep the active games list up to date, but if that's the cost of coming to a compromise solution to this issue that lets us do what's best for Molly while still looking after a group of our core members, I think it's well worth it.
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Re: Allow guests to view portions of the forum: Round 2

Post by Smyg » 13:53:14 Friday, 08 March, 2013

Langben wrote:
BgKnight wrote:I am sorry that it has come to this and that this topic turned into a drama fest
While I understand that Gesar/Snacks/Rin feel pressured by the situation, I don't believe this discussion has become a drama fest. Anybody who does feel so should certainly speak up, lest discourse is silenced rather than encouraged.
I don't really have any strong opinions concerning all this, at least not relevant ones, but I do agree that it's still a discussion.
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